063 Klimavenner for Kjernekraft (Climate Friends for Nuclear Energy): Mathias Meyer & David Harestad

[00:00:00] Mathias Meyer: Uh, yeah, maybe 10 15 years, best case, we might get, uh, get nuclear Norway if it takes longer than maybe more. But like, right now it just seems inevitable that we get nuclear Norway, just a matter of time.

Just because the facts are A, if the narrative is B and everyone believes the narrative, then B is what matters. But it’s our job in our industry to speak up, proudly, soberly. And to engage people in this dialogue. Those two and a half billion people that are in energy poverty, they need us. America cannot meet this threat alone.

If there is a single country. Of course the world cannot meet it without America. That is willing to. We’re gonna need you. The next generation to finish the job. Overhaul nuclear radiation. We need scientists to design new fuels. And focus on net public benefit. We need engineers to invent new technologies.

Over absurd levels of radiation. Entrepreneurs to sell those technologies. And we will march towards this. We need workers to operate a Assembly lines that hum with [00:01:00] high tech, zero carbon components. We have unlimited prosperity for all of you. We need diplomats and businessmen and women and Peace Corps volunteers to help developing nations skip past the dirty phase of development and transition to sustainable sources of energy.

In other words, we need you.

[00:01:17] Mark Hinaman: Welcome to another episode of the Fire2Fishin podcast. My name is Mark Hinaman, and I’m joined today by two awesome guys in Norway.

We’ve got Mathias Meyer and David O’Hara. Hardercraft. Harstad. Harstad. Harstad. Yeah. These guys helped start. We got the chairman and you said board member of, um, essentially Friends of the Climate for Nuclear Power in Norway. And I’m not going to try and pretend like I can pronounce this, but it’s, it’s a, it’s a tongue twister.

How do you pronounce

[00:01:51] Mathias Meyer: it guys? Klimavenner for Kjernekraft.

[00:01:53] Mark Hinaman: Klimavenner for Kjernekraft. Klimavenner for Kjernekraft. Klimavenner for Kjernekraft. Um, But we’re here at ONS, [00:02:00] which is, yeah, Offshore Northern Sea Oil and Gas Conference. And we had some, some stuff for nuclear today, uh, at the conference for the first time ever.

It’s the 50th time or 50 years that they’ve been doing this conference. 50, yeah. Yeah, um, so I’m sure we’ll talk about that. Can’t wait to talk about your guys organization. It’s like the leading nuclear organization in Norway, uh, pro nuclear group. So, um, yeah. Before we get into all that, I want to learn a little bit about you guys.

Uh, what’s your background? Uh, how’d you get your start? What, what have you been doing that led you to this? Uh, yeah, let’s start with you, Mathias.

[00:02:37] Mathias Meyer: Sure. So, um, so I started as negative, I started negative towards nuclear. Everything I learned in school was negative, like all my teachers, my, uh, the curriculum, like the books, the, uh, how we discussed in the classroom, the news I read.

I didn’t get one single pro argument for nuclear for like, uh, school. And then I went to high [00:03:00] school and then I did like, uh, I took like physics high level, um, uh, like a science high school. And then I started to like, learn about the nuclear. And then I thought, this is just an engineering problem. Like the physics is not that complicated.

It’s like a way to cook water. So, um, I was part of like, uh, the biggest climate organization in Norway, um, uh, and then because I cared about like climate and taking care of the nature and animals and, uh, the lands of indigenous people, uh, but then I thought we need a organization just for nuclear because all the other climate organizations are against nuclear, so we need to start our own organization.

So, um, then we were like a group of people, me and David started doing like, uh, Demonstrations outside all the big cities in Norway And it took like over a year before we actually met each other just talking daily on like the phone or texting [00:04:00] so And this happened like during Corona, so then it kind of worked out great.

We just coordinate having people all over Norway So it was us two and two other guys And then, uh, then we just started rolling, and now, like, three years later, we’re about 1, 000 members. So, but Norway’s a small country, so for us, that’s, that makes us actually one of the bigger climate organizations in Norway, um, so yeah.

That’s

[00:04:28] Mark Hinaman: awesome.

[00:04:28] Mathias Meyer: Yeah.

[00:04:29] Mark Hinaman: What, what did you do before you started this, I guess? Did you start it as a student, or?

[00:04:36] Mathias Meyer: Yeah, so I lead this while I’m studying economics. I’m like the young guy in the NGO. But all the other people like, uh, we had one guy who like worked at a nuclear plant. He had like some professors and people doing PhDs and, uh, um, Yeah, different kind of backgrounds from different political parties and different, uh, I’m like the dumb guy.

I’m doing like econ [00:05:00] But all the other people like doing hard science So I’m more focusing on like the political aspect and then the other side like all the technical knowledge. Yeah Dumb, but economics of how

[00:05:11] Mark Hinaman: things actually get done, right? Like, people make money at this stuff for it to actually get done, get across the finish line.

Yeah Okay, David, what about you?

[00:05:20] David Harestad: Well, economics is not that dumb, because that’s what I just studied as well, so Well, yeah. Well, my background is more of, uh, an environmental background. I was engaged in the Green Party in Norway. With friends that told me that nuclear is awesome. And before that, I was more, uh, agnostic towards it.

I didn’t really know that much about it. And then I more or less understood that, okay, if we’re going to be real about the climate situation, then we need the best tools, which we have. And right there and then, I landed on nuclear. So yeah, um, I decided more or less to switch my focus from, um, a broader green [00:06:00] politic to a more, uh, focus on nuclear energy.

So um, yeah, uh, we found each other on the internet. I think it was standup for nuclear. Yeah. Yeah, so, um. Like in a, in a whatsapp group or on,

[00:06:14] Mathias Meyer: uh, Yeah, so, uh, like, uh, an American called Mark Nelson. Love Mark. Hi Mark. Yeah. Yeah. Hi Mark.

[00:06:21] Mark Hinaman: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:06:22] Mathias Meyer: They had like a big international movement called Stand Up For Nuclear, so we just joined up then.

We’re Stand Up For Nuclear Norway, and then, uh, then we became like more a Norwegian thing. Yeah. Got it. So yeah,

[00:06:33] David Harestad: he arranged the demonstration in Oslo, pro nuclear. I arranged the first one in Stavanger, and, um, from there on the ball started rolling.

[00:06:41] Mark Hinaman: Okay. Nice. So do you live in Oslo and you’re in Stavanger?

I live in Stavanger. Yeah. Yeah. So now we’re in your city. Now we’re in my city. Yeah, we’re in your city. Alright, that’s a good segment. So, David, tell us a little bit about what ONS is and the background and the history. Oh, man. What it means for sabongers, for the world to know. [00:07:00] Well, I told him that I feel bad wearing a suit.

What do you mean? Like, to ONS? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:07] David Harestad: Okay.

[00:07:08] Mark Hinaman: I mean, yeah, we’re wearing jackets and you’re wearing a sweatshirt over here. I like it. Yeah, now I am because of, uh,

[00:07:13] David Harestad: well, I had to wear a suit because of dinner on Monday. Yeah. When I say in Stavanger, well, you know, it’s been around a couple years now and I would say it’s a mix of people being proud, but also a bit like, you know, um, Scandinavian janterlåg.

You’re not supposed to think that you are anything and if you have a lot of money, you’re not supposed to flaunt it around. So it’s a, it’s a mixed vibe, you know, yeah. But um, in the big scheme of things, I think it’s a positive thing because it shows how this city and this part of Norway. Not only this part of Norway, but Norway in general has understood that you need to work really hard to get shit done.

And you also need to innovate, and you need to, um, yeah, be productive, basically. Yeah.

[00:07:57] Mark Hinaman: Um, so I guess, high level, what [00:08:00] is ONS? I mean, it’s an oil and gas conference, right? Yeah, yeah. But, how big is it? Do you know any of the stats for Yeah, it’s 60, 000 people now,

[00:08:08] David Harestad: attending. Uh, I don’t know how many it is, but I would guess I’m

not certain about the thousand, but I guess 500 companies around that.

[00:08:20] Mark Hinaman: Yeah,

[00:08:21] David Harestad: and it’s it is very big. It’s um, yeah, and I would say, you know, um The growth of the festival has it is a testament To the success of the ownership. Yeah What we’ve managed to do here, so we’re both proud of it, but you know also

[00:08:39] Mark Hinaman: aware of what it takes I was very impressed with the conference walking in And it, yeah, the scale and the technology and, uh, everything that has gone into it.

It’s obvious that it’s been here for a while and it’s very popular, but yeah, it’s a big deal in Norway. But it’s also really cool with the whole

[00:08:57] David Harestad: Nuclear Monday, um, that they [00:09:00] introduced, not only introduced, but included that in the program, which is really cool.

[00:09:03] Mark Hinaman: So let’s talk about that. I guess, had they ever included nuclear?

Well, so they included, they started including renewables, I believe, in 2020 or 2022. They do it, the conference every two years, right? But they had. Never included nuclear before now, right?

[00:09:17] Mathias Meyer: Yeah, we learned on Monday that, uh, the guy that had the event, uh, on Monday that, um, Uh, they wanted to do nuclear two years ago, and then they said it was too controversial.

And now, two years later, they were, like, super energetic about it. Like, they even called Nuclear Monday the first day of the conference. Yeah. So, lots of things have changed. Like, when we started our organization, We were like the, the strange guy in the corner of the room, like everyone think we were lunatics.

But now it’s the opposite. Like everyone think you’re a lunatic if you’re, are not, uh, not yet maybe, but, uh, people are starting to think like you’re unserious if you just dismiss nuclear entirely. Yeah. So even like the anti nuclear people in Norway, they [00:10:00] have like changed their stance to more open like, uh, other sources might be more economical, but they’re not against nuclear.

Yeah. Yeah. They are like changes stance to that from like just being Yeah, categorically against. Follow

[00:10:14] David Harestad: up on what you’re saying, you know, um, the shift has also been monumental. Five years ago nuclear was the least popular energy source in Norway. Now, it’s the most popular energy source. We don’t have it.

We have like some research reactors. So we’ve seen the change. I would say we’ve been working with the change And it has been amazing to observe. And also, you know, um, just be aware that it works. Yeah. It works talking to people. It works, um, just, um, I don’t know, spreading the word and sending mails and creating arrangements.

I don’t know. You have to be, uh, I don’t know. We were talking to Mark about this, you know, and other countries are struggling with [00:11:00] how they’re supposed to spread the word and how they’re supposed to organize. And I think maybe Corona was a shot of luck. Because we were able to organize online quite fast and from there it spread organically.

[00:11:11] Mathias Meyer: And people were like looking for something to do and then people just spent their free time that they suddenly gained to just to watch our organization. Like we had lots of people, like really good people just spending lots of their free time just fighting for us on the internet and doing stuff. And they still

[00:11:29] David Harestad: are, you know.

Yeah, Keyboard

[00:11:30] Mark Hinaman: Warriors doing a great job. So let’s, let’s talk about nuclear in Norway. Norway doesn’t have any nuclear power plants and not even a research reactor anymore, but that’s kind of peculiar, isn’t it? Because, wasn’t Norway one of the first countries or the first country to have a functional nuclear reactor?

In Europe at least? We were the 6th first country

[00:11:52] Mathias Meyer: in the world to have a reactor, and after that we’ve had 4 reactors, the 6th, yeah. So, um, [00:12:00] Yeah, and we had like ever leading Yeah People like in certain aspects, so we have to have a lot of knowledge on it, and there’s also a Center in Halden where like people all over the world comes there to like train in order to operate a nuclear plant Yeah, and that’s kind of strange, like, people in RSA say, Oh, we don’t have the, we don’t have the knowledge, we don’t have the competence to run nuclear plants, but apparently you have the knowledge to train others to run them, so, I don’t really think that argument works, but you still hear it a lot, that, uh, we don’t know stuff about it.

[00:12:37] Mark Hinaman: Yeah,

[00:12:38] Mathias Meyer: it’s, it’s

[00:12:39] Mark Hinaman: bizarre. Um, a recurring theme that I heard when I talked to people this week at the conference was, uh, I love nuclear, but it’s not popular, uh, it’s not politically popular, it’s not politically safe. Um, talk to me about how that’s transformed over time, and where the momentum’s headed.

[00:12:58] Mathias Meyer: So uh, there’s [00:13:00] a generational shift, like um, uh, people under 40, so from, we have a poll from 15 to 40, they’re like super pro nuclear, but the people over 40, it’s like the opposite, they’re like, uh, lots of people are against it.

So, um. Uh, and also like, uh, in, uh, the political parties, they have like a youth wing. A lot of the youth wings are pro nuclear, but like the adult wing, the, the real party are often against. So, um, that’s, uh, definitely a shift there. Um, I would like to follow up with,

[00:13:35] David Harestad: um, we were also a bit lucky considering, uh, the resistance in Norway against, um, Yeah.

Talk about that. What’s the story there? Well, um, it’s almost like the perfect storm, you could say. Because, uh, we started the organization and we were thinking like, Okay, what’s the smartest thing we can do? And we realized that we could hack the [00:14:00] hate against wind power in Norway. Which, you know, to me, it’s kind of sad because I’m personally I’m pro where it’s smart to put them up, right?

Like, just don’t erase nature. Uh, use places for industry and such. In Norway, the hate is really, really strong. So, we provided, like, an alternative to people. So, okay, I understand you hate nuclear power. I mean, I understand that you hate, uh, wind power. So, uh, we did that, and I think we were really lucky.

Because, uh, without that, we probably wouldn’t have had the momentum which we’ve had in this country. Um, so, that was luck. Um, and I guess the

[00:14:40] Mark Hinaman: rest was hard work. So what has been the work? Tell me about the organization. I mean, I know you guys said you were kind of doing stuff separately, but what were some of the first things that you did to get started?

And then, yeah, how have you, how’s it been built? Well, you know, um, the social media thing,

[00:14:56] David Harestad: it came more or less organically. So we had some people And [00:15:00] was that Facebook? Was that Twitter? Yeah, like all the usual suspects, yeah.

[00:15:03] Mark Hinaman: And

[00:15:04] David Harestad: we were blessed by having keyword warriors that decided to spend their time fighting for us.

And being online on Twitter and our account and just spreading memes all the time. So did you guys have

[00:15:14] Mark Hinaman: like a shared Twitter account? Multiple people could post. Yeah,

[00:15:17] Mathias Meyer: like our, uh, our page, our organization has like an official page and then we had like lots of people just being, uh, doing the keyword work.

They’re not paid

[00:15:25] David Harestad: at all. They just want to do it for the fun.

[00:15:26] Mathias Meyer: Yeah, we all volunteer around. No one, no one else gets money. Like, uh, yeah, just, uh, idealism.

[00:15:33] Mark Hinaman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they’d go out to kind of public forums or engage in discussions. on any social media platform. And then we,

[00:15:42] David Harestad: um, we started working with our, um, visibility and our marketing.

There’s a political gathering in Norway called Ålandalsvika. That’s where we blow our budget. It’s like a political, um, I don’t know, like a week where people come and discuss politics. You can [00:16:00] talk to all kinds of organizations. We were there, and we’ve been there for four years now. And it’s a

[00:16:05] Mathias Meyer: really small city, like, uh, basically, they might be angry if I say it, but like a small village.

And then, uh, but all, like, the important people, all the politicians and business people go there. So, like, at the cafe, at the store, you always meet, like, important people. And then we have, like, a booth giving out these posters. And, uh, yeah, basically just every time recruiting a lot of members and doing events.

The events we had, they were like so packed that, um, people were like rejected at the door to get in to summon them.

[00:16:37] David Harestad: And also during this week, we also saw a development in this court, like from year to year, um, people were a bit against, I would say more against in the beginning, and now this year, I didn’t meet a single person that was against Nukler.

Yeah. I met one person, he was a bit skeptical, but then we were able to save him as well. And the arguments they use,

[00:16:59] Mathias Meyer: and the [00:17:00] arguments they use also change a lot. Like when we started, we heard a lot of nuclear is dangerous, like, uh, it kills people, um, like Chernobyl, all those arguments. And we don’t really hear those anymore.

Like right now it’s more a discussion about, uh, uh, what is the fastest way to net zero? Is it renewables? Is it, uh, and then they like, they’re against nuclear and say nuclear is like slow and expensive. So that’s the arguments we hear now, and we don’t really hear the other arguments anymore. And I would say that, um,

[00:17:30] David Harestad: we’re about to move into the territory where the one argument which is the final argument in Norway when it comes to nuclear is the costs.

And I would say that’s where it’s supposed to be. It’s not supposed to be about safety and all those other things.

[00:17:44] Mathias Meyer: Yeah, then it’s the market solving. Yeah. And that’s where the discussion should be.

[00:17:49] Mark Hinaman: Yeah. As, as economists, do you guys have a perspective on, on the cost or a view on how that comes, how it becomes less expensive?[00:18:00]

[00:18:02] Mathias Meyer: Well, I think that, uh, like I don’t have a personal stake in nuclear, so like, uh, we don’t get any money for it. So if some other technology, which is like clean and takes care of nature, wins instead, like, I would, uh, say that it’s a win, uh, win. My perspective is that nuclear is the only way to both have stable power and save nature to create green energy.

But, if there’s some other technology, then sure.

[00:18:32] Mark Hinaman: How do things get cheaper in other industries, Erwin? I mean, it’s really like supply and demand, right? If we increase supply of nuclear power, and demand stays flat, then what Cost should come down. Well, that’s what they want to do with the small modular

[00:18:47] David Harestad: reactors.

Mass produced. Build more of them, make them cheaper. Right. Which is really interesting because the energy consultants uh, normally they they [00:19:00] are telling the politicians to take it easy and wait for like Poland to start building and to see if it actually works. You know? Yeah. So that’s the state right now.

[00:19:10] Mathias Meyer: I think at some point you’ll probably get like, streamlined, conveyor belt production of SMRs, but that might take some time. So in the meantime, my personal opinion is that, you know, we should build, like, the ordinary nuclear reactors, and then once the SMRs come, like, that will be in our brain, just competing costs, but yeah, that, that might take some time.

So, like, I, I say that we should use the technology we have now, build as much as possible of that, and then, you Simultaneously, in parallel, we can also, like, develop other technologies. I like that.

[00:19:44] Mark Hinaman: We’ll talk more about the future towards the end. Tell me about this little brochure, the poster that you guys have been handing out.

You guys have Maddie Hilly here. It’s nuclear waste, which is awesome. We’re staying next to some casks, some dry casks. I grabbed one of [00:20:00] these and, I mean, it’s super sexy. It’s got, like, everything that you could need, but I can’t read it because it’s in Norwegian. I need some Google Translate. So

[00:20:08] David Harestad: it goes back to, yeah, you know, art, um, is filled up with awesome people doing volunteer work.

We’re really lucky. We know a designer is in our board. Uh,

[00:20:19] Mathias Meyer: yeah. And he has like, made the art for lots of very famous games that probably a lot of we have played. So, uh, yeah, he, he makes the artwork for some big stuff. And then, uh, we got like a picture. Uh, you might not see it, but, uh, it’s like Maddie that you mentioned, and she has like her, um.

Her children in her stomach being pregnant next to the waste containers. And when we show that to people, it makes such a impactful emotional story. Like, she’s a nuclear advocate, she knows it’s safe, and she’s willing to prove it with like, her own offspring. So, when people We made, we made a roll up with her, like a huge roll up

[00:20:58] David Harestad: with her right [00:21:00] next to the chest.

[00:21:01] Mathias Meyer: And when people see it, it’s like, so profound. But, uh I also joked that if you, uh, if I got a few extra fingers and extra hands, it might be useful for piano, so Might be some extra Do you play piano? I’m trying to learn, like, this summer I started trying to learn it, so Right now I can barely read the notes, and then play a few easy songs, but I’m working on it.

Awesome, yeah.

[00:21:24] Mark Hinaman: It’s fun, stick with it. Um, okay guys, so that’s, I mean, a thousand members, like you said, that’s, that’s non trivial, I think. Norway is 5 million people ish. I mean, it’s about the same size as Colorado or Finland has about 5 million people. A bit less, yeah. A bit less, yeah. But for a thousand members for a new grassroots organization, that’s not bad.

But you guys are looking to grow. How do you see that happening and if people want to get involved, how do they find you? So,

[00:21:58] David Harestad: um, that’s [00:22:00] interesting because, you know, the challenges of this movement. I would say the first and foremost challenge for the nuclear movement is, uh, it’s a bros movement. It’s a nuclear bros movement, especially in Norway, which is kind of annoying.

So, uh, for any movement or anybody who wants to do anything like this, you need to make sure that you have females involved, because then you could double or triple your membership. Yeah, we should have had Liz interviewing you instead of me, right? Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. So that’s probably the most important thing.

Yeah. You can make things happen with guys as well, of course. You manage, but I think the growth potential would be

way higher. Get more women involved. Yes, sir. Okay. What do you think, Mathijs?

[00:22:50] Mathias Meyer: Yeah, like, we’re the Nuke Bros, so we need to broaden out.

[00:22:54] Mark Hinaman: So, what did you guys think of the nuclear sessions this [00:23:00] week? You mentioned at some of the panels that you had been to before, you saw growth and it was like kind of standing room only. Um, the sessions at ONS, what was your takeaway, your feedback from the nuclear sessions that you had attended?

Well, we

[00:23:16] David Harestad: attended the one on Monday. That was the one. And, um, Well, um, it’s a bit like I said earlier, I was glad because there was one guy, and he was not a pro nuclear guy. Well, he was open to it, but his landing argument was that you guys need to prove that the investors will get something back. And, yeah, to me it’s proof that the discussion has moved, right?

So, yeah, maybe this guy would have said the same thing five years ago. But now it’s more or less in the open, right? It’s like the discussion is about the investment and the CAPEX and the OPEX. That’s where it should be. It shouldn’t be about the waste or how dangerous it potentially could be. So that was really cool from that talk to [00:24:00] see this because his, his, his perspective wasn’t negative.

It was, this is interesting, prove that it’s valuable to me, then, then it could work, you know. So, um, that was, that was really positive.

[00:24:16] Mark Hinaman: I like that. Dude, uh, you guys mentioned a dinner. You got dressed up for a dinner on Monday night. What was that event?

[00:24:25] Mathias Meyer: So, uh, yeah, that was really cool. Like, when we started a few years ago, we were Sometimes we had, like, some Americans over to Norway, and then we were just a small amount of people having a dinner together.

And now it was, like, 50 people. from all kinds of industries and some of the people attending they were people that a few years ago would probably be too controversial for them to attend in like considering their jobs like people outside the people from other energy and industries but now it’s becoming [00:25:00] more accepted so people from all kinds of life are are able to to be interested in nuclear so um So yeah, we had the dinner together and then, uh, people from, I mean, you just meet people from all kinds of industries.

They’re looking at nuclear from individual angles. So like, uh, I noticed like oil people, you seem like, uh, the old people seem really good at like, uh, actually executing stuff. And a nuclear plant, it’s only like 5 percent nuclear. All the other stuff is stuff they know well from oil, uh, like pipes and steam and concrete, like.

All those processes. So, uh, there’s like a private company in Norway, uh, that wants to build nuclear in Norway. And they’re, uh, they’re coming from an old background. So that’s interesting to see. And that one struggle we have had is like the climate organization in Norway are very against nuclear. So I always feel personally that a bit strange that like, uh, me [00:26:00] being active in other climate organizations, they’re always so against, uh, nuclear, but Like, uh, and then I meet people from all industries, they’re pro nuclear.

So, uh, I think, uh, unfortunately, climate organizations are usually maybe the, one of the hardest people to convince to be pro nuclear. Uh, even though that’s, that’s my reason for nuclear to, for, for climate and nature. So, um, Well, we could follow up on that

[00:26:30] David Harestad: because, you know, we did this summer, we visited, like, uh, Utah.

It’s a youth organization and they’re really into, uh, um, like, how do you say, like taking care of the nature. They’re environmentalists. Um, and, um, they’re the biggest, uh, yeah, they’re the biggest among the youths in Norway. So we went to their summer camp because nuclear power was one of their controversial topics.

So it was the European Union and nuclear power. And this again goes back to what he says about [00:27:00] how society and people have opened up to the idea. When we came to their camp. Uh, we befriended some of the people there and they were like, Uh, I love nuclear, I saw the Chernobyl show, and uh, Uh, I understand that nuclear now is a good idea, it’s a good technology, And it’s going to save Mother Nature in the future.

Like, that would never happen a couple years ago. So, us being invited there is just another proof of the change in society. But it’s also really important work because, you know, These people, if we make them understand how good nuclear could potentially be for nature, Then they will not start, um, Blocking themselves with chains to the equipment when they’re starting to build the reactors, right?

So, yeah. But we also talk to other organizations, of course, like political parties, um, but also like, I don’t know, um, for instance, I’m going to talk to some old people in a rotary club, so we talk to all kinds of people in Norway, basically. So not only the, you know, [00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Mathias Meyer: Yeah, we get like invited by all the parties to all over Norway to like hold presentations and be part of debates.

So that’s like the information work just like usually when I discuss nuclear people is often just a lack of information might sound a bit arrogant. But I feel like if you can sit down and talk long enough, like break down kind of the fears and the stigma. Then eventually I feel like people understand it’s important.

Like my family were super against nuclear and when I want to be part of starting this organization they advised me not to. So, yeah, but now they’re like pro nuclear so, uh, basically just it took some yes to of convincing.

[00:28:46] Mark Hinaman: Yeah, that’s awesome. Uh, that’s a great anecdote about, yeah, going to a youth camp and And having a session that you can educate people, and then seeing the change over time.

Um, I’ll comment on the dinner on [00:29:00] Monday night, I thought it was awesome. I went also. Uh, you guys mentioned a few things, but I’ll just say a few more, like, I mean, Baker Hughes was there, Halliburton was there, um, to call out some specific oil companies, um, there was a Thorium reactor developer in Norway.

Uh, there was a CEO, uh, that runs an oil company, and they’re starting a nuclear company. There were investors, there were venture capitalists there. It was an awesome dinner. There was Mark Nelson’s, uh, business partner, Richard Ollington was there, he helped organize it, right? Um, Martin Yelmalan, that kind of helped organize some panels and has been on the podcast before was there.

And Doug Sandridge, the oil and gas executive, or executives for nuclear. Um, so I, I had fun. It was, it was an awesome dinner and awesome event and it started as like, what, 12 people and then bloomed up to like 43, so. Yeah. But I want to circle back to this idea of politics [00:30:00] and how, how it changes, um, and how it changes in Norway, because I’ll give you guys some feedback on stuff that I heard again this week, and I’m curious on your thoughts on Um, how it changes and how fast or how long it takes it to change and what it’ll take to change.

Um, when I spoke to nearly everyone from, uh, executives at some of the largest oil companies in Norway, um, down to, you know, guys that were running some really small service companies that everyone in between, uh, they all said nuclear, cool, love it, politically it’s never gonna happen. To which I said, don’t you guys like live in a democracy?

Can’t you like, everyone I talked to says they like it. Can’t you vote like new politicians then? So, um, how, how does this change in Norway? Like what, what’s the current state of affairs and how do people in political power become pro NUKU?

[00:30:59] Mathias Meyer: [00:31:00] So, uh, in Norway we have a bit different system than America where you have like two party system.

We have like. Like 9 parties in the parliament. And then Spell it as you

[00:31:08] Mark Hinaman: want. You get a party. You

[00:31:10] Mathias Meyer: get a party.

[00:31:10] David Harestad: Could be worse. Could be Denmark.

[00:31:12] Mathias Meyer: Yeah. So, um, and all those parties have different opinions, of course. So, uh, right now it’s the, uh, the Christian Democrats and, like, the most right party. They’re the most pro nuclear.

And then, yeah, some kind of, yeah, but you can see in a lot of countries usually, like, left right divide where left wing are more skeptical. Right wing are more open to nuclear, but, uh, yeah, this is like starting to change. So right now the government in Norway’s Labour, like left wing, they’re quite against nuclear.

Uh, so, uh, but next year, this, uh, new, um, uh, Congress election in Norway, and then it looks to be likely to be a much more positive Parliament for, uh, for nuclear. [00:32:00] So we’re working towards all the parties, like we built. To get invited or invite yourselves. To, uh, uh, yeah, just people we meet and then they want us to, uh, hold a presentation, be part of debates in all those parties where we attend their conferences, just signing out flyers or having like a booth.

So, and we’ve been invited to the general assemblies, like the national meeting for, uh, for a lot of the parties now. So, um, They’re super insisted in nuclear, and even a lot of people against nuclear, they just want to be more knowledgeable about nuclear. So, maybe you can kind of guess that they might possibly be more open, and then they want to learn, to be part of the internal debate.

But maybe they can’t publicly say they’re pro nuclear, so then they just have like a lunch with us. So, um, yeah, but like big, big things are happening. And one of the biggest change is, I feel like a lot of people against nuclear. They’re starting to think that Nucleo will come [00:33:00] eventually, but right now it’s Unpuckler, so they want a more open position where they don’t want to be kind of on the wrong side of history.

So they say, yeah, it’s positive where they have it, and maybe it will come someday, but it will come too late to Norway, so they have like a more open view out of it, so, yeah, I guess that’s the biggest change.

[00:33:22] David Harestad: Well, I could add that, you know, um We asked a bunch of people when we started out for hints, like, how should we attack this problem, and we got some really solid feedback.

Um, go for the grassroots in the big parties, go for the grassroots movements, you know? Like, for instance, the Labour Party, they have a ton of local clubs, right? So, um, what happened with, for instance, the Labour Party was that they had a bunch of, leaders in their different municipalities, uh, turning pro nuclear.

because of the, uh, popular uprising against wind [00:34:00] power. So, so that’s a really interesting thing, right? We went to the bottom and the grassroots of the parties and they started working upwards. And his point about the Labour Party is very interesting because, um, it’s the leadership in that party are against.

Uh, so the same applies to a couple of other parties and the base of the party is a pro. Uh, I would, I would think that maybe now, 2024, in the summer, there are probably two parties where the base is still against, normally, of nine parties. Yeah, I feel that’s kind of unique. Two

[00:34:43] Mark Hinaman: parties of the base? Yeah, two parties.

I guess I’m so ignorant about this. This is, uh, added. Do you need to have all of the parties on board? Can one party block it? Or do you just need a majority? No,

[00:34:55] David Harestad: it’s

[00:34:56] Mathias Meyer: a democracy. I mean, in practice, you probably [00:35:00] need both a majority of the parliament, and it’s having the people in the executive government, like the Secretary of Energy, like you say, the Minister of Energy, probably quite important to be pro nuclear.

So, uh But yeah, I feel like our movement to it is kind of unique where, like in other countries, they have like the government maybe wants to kind of force some kind of energy on the people and then local people protest against the nuclear. But right now we’re seeing the opposite. Like there’s uh, right now about 80 counties in Norway that are interested in nuclear.

Some of them had on like a referendum where they’re pro nuclear. And also multiple of them said they volunteer that they can take the waste. Uh, so, um, But they elect the central government there again, so, uh, um

[00:35:49] David Harestad: But it’s really interesting to see the change. Because, like, for instance, the last party that had power, or I mean the prime minister, uh, our last prime minister, she was a bit against.

[00:36:00] And then her husband, he’s really proud. And then slowly, things started working out. I’m not saying that only this guy’s opinion was, you know, enough to change her, but she also saw the change in the country, and within her own party. So, so,

[00:36:13] Mathias Meyer: uh, and then she came to propose herself in parliament, uh, like, uh, in the parliament to get more knowledge and kind of prepare Norway for nuclear.

Yeah, exactly.

[00:36:22] David Harestad: So from the grassroots, from the base and up, and, uh, it works in every party. Yeah. As long as the people are

[00:36:29] Mark Hinaman: pro. I like that. So some of the strategies I’ll say back to you, what I heard, uh, setting up flyers or having a flyer to hand out, right. Going to events, going to. Uh, rallies, if you have a booth, if there’s somewhere that you can have a booth and like pass out information, um, getting people aware, I guess is it kind of getting people signed up for social media pages, or newsletters, or like, just, just making them aware of content?

What else, uh?

[00:36:57] David Harestad: It’s probably like, I guess, [00:37:00] I think we spent like, less than 100, 000. Totally. Okay. Maybe what do you think?

[00:37:06] Mathias Meyer: Yeah, like we basically just store stuff in, uh, garages and everything. It’s like we, we don’t have office, we don’t have anything. And people in Norway just starting to become like quite pronuclear and or, uh, like competitors that are against nuclear.

They have like, so, so many people in there have so much money to work against nuclear. So

[00:37:26] David Harestad: like the, the one anti anti organization, they have 40 employees.

[00:37:30] Mathias Meyer: Yeah, like, for example, you have one that’s working for renewables. And like, as you said, like, if you can do that without hurting nature, we’re open to that.

But, uh, they’re suddenly starting to seem like they spend more energy against nuclear than, like, pro renewables. So, like, our rhetoric is just, we need to take care of nature and, and, uh, climate and nuclear is the way to do that. We’re not anti other people. But, uh, but the other renewable organizations seem to spend [00:38:00] a lot of resources just attacking us.

[00:38:02] David Harestad: But they have also changed their ethic, like, over the last couple of years, especially, uh, this year, because they’ve understood that the argument they’re using they don’t work anymore because people have understood and they’ve been informed about the realities of nuclear. So they’ve, they’ve moderated themselves.

They used to be nuclear is bad, and now they are. It’s a clean source of energy. But it costs too much.

[00:38:28] Mark Hinaman: Yeah, right. Um, in the U. S., I would say there’s been a big shift in the past, uh, two, four, and six years. Like, if I think back on the rhetoric around nuclear, and it’s just been growing in momentum, um, like the momentum’s been growing continuously.

Uh, but these things take time. It takes time, but then before you know it, you’ve got politicians coming out with, uh, referendums, or new bills, or new Legislation proposals that, that are meant to [00:39:00] help the industry and, and they get behind it. Given the momentum that you guys have seen since you started and then now we’ve got a nuclear at ONS and, uh, how long until you start to see some of that coming out of the Norwegian

[00:39:17] David Harestad: parliament?

What do you think? I could start by telling a funny story because there was a populist party on their right side of politics. They’ve been pro nuclear for a while, but they came out and said if we’re going to build nuclear, we should have it, uh, in the Statoil model, uh, Statoil being Equinor, the old name for Equinor, and it was built, um, in, uh, where the state has the ownership.

And it’s really interesting to see that this argument comes from a populist left, uh, right wing party, right? Which, uh, they’d be all private, free market. Yeah. So all of a sudden you have that argument as well, right? You [00:40:00] have, uh, Moskosham Koft, Norwegian nuclear power, um, saying that we want to build without subsidies, and then all of a sudden you have a populist party saying, well, if we’re going to build nuclear, why don’t we just build it really good and really big and follow the good old Statoil model, you know?

Which is actually a heavy hitting argument in Norway, from, uh, on both sides of the political spectrum.

[00:40:23] Mathias Meyer: I think we kind of had the perfect win here because we started kind of the grassroots movement where like local countries wanted and the central government being quite unpopular for other reasons being against the kind of abuses even more, uh, and contrarian effect.

And now we might get a really pro nuclear government next there, so then you maybe have both. A few decades ago the, um, the government actually wanted, like in the 70s, they wanted the Uh, to build nuclear in Norway. Uh, but then there were like the opposite where the central wanted, but like local people were against.

And then [00:41:00] it took some time to kind of find the areas and do, uh, uh, to do the work there. And then at the same time, we suddenly found oil in Norway thanks to American’s help. So, uh, when we found oil, we just basically put nuclear on the shelf. But Sweden Our neighbor, they built nuclear, so I presume if we found oil just a bit later or started nuclear just a bit earlier, we would probably have nuclear just like, uh, Sweden does.

So, yeah, just some, uh, coincidences that, uh, made it so that we, we didn’t get it. But, uh, now I think we’re actually quite close to, to getting nuclear to Norway.

[00:41:37] Mark Hinaman: How close? One year? Five years? Twenty years? What’s, what’s close? Six months? When are these elections? When do we swap out these? Who’s politicians?

10, 10 years to be optimistic. Okay.

[00:41:47] Mathias Meyer: Yeah. Like the new election next, uh, next autumn. And then, uh, after that, that might give like a green light. And then you’ll get, uh, investors, like right now there are multiple private companies wanting nuclear to Norway. [00:42:00] Uh, we are just, uh, volunteer company. Every volunteer NGOs we don’t get any money from, from them.

But, uh, uh, lucky at the Norwegian, um. We have three Norwegian companies wanting to build nuclear in Norway, and we also met at this conference lots of, uh, foreign companies that want to sell their reactors to Norway. So, uh, yeah, I think once they get green light, then it’s basically bureaucracy taking time to maybe give the green light.

Maybe that takes a few years, and then also get, uh, the companies that need to build nuclear might take a few years to just get it up. But, uh, as David said, Uh, yeah, maybe 10 15 years, best case, we might get, uh, get nuclear Norway if it takes longer than maybe more. But like, right now it just seems inevitable that we get nuclear Norway, just a matter of time.

[00:42:50] David Harestad: It’s also kind of hard to predict the future, but, um, there are a bunch of people with money who are a bit skeptical of nuclear in Norway, but they’re more optimistic when it comes to the [00:43:00] concept of building nuclear powered ships in Norway. So that might be an industry in the future. I don’t know. Yeah, I

[00:43:06] Mark Hinaman: discovered that project recently.

I’m hoping to have that guy on our podcast, the guy that’s been in charge of that program. I had lunch with him when I was in Allison last week. You did? Wow. Yeah, so Yeah,

[00:43:17] Mathias Meyer: they have like a big research project on nuclear ships. Yeah, it’s awesome. I

[00:43:22] Mark Hinaman: could not believe I met him in Prague actually. So yeah, hopefully we can get him to come on the podcast and talk about it.

Because

[00:43:28] David Harestad: that might be an easier sale.

[00:43:33] Mark Hinaman: Well, I think I think with the work that you guys are doing you’re gonna speed it up and these politicians are gonna get Their acting gear and you’re gonna start building some new projects in 2026 2027. It’s gonna be awesome Yeah, but that one is 2030 that they expect to have a prototype of a ship that can be powered by a nuclear Which would be awesome.

Yes

Guys this this has been great [00:44:00] What, what, what else do you wanna leave the audience with? What, uh,

how can people get involved? What, what do you need? What if they wanna help, what can they do?

[00:44:12] Mathias Meyer: We want to thank our American friends. Like you really helped us get the ball around and we just had like the, uh, the idea and like the, the energy, but we didn’t have like the, the mental tools to get the moment, uh, going.

So like, uh, our American friends to really just teach us. Here’s the arguments, here’s Savio, when people say Waze, when people say Chernobyl, they gave us like all this, all this knowledge, yeah, all this knowledge to just learn. And then we, when we learn from like your best, we just start to spread the word in Norway.

And now, uh, if you are a Norwegian listener, you can become a member. If you’re from other countries, maybe you could, uh, consider build nuclear plants in Norway. [00:45:00] But, uh, yeah. Yeah, like Norway’s energy history seems to be really influenced by Americans, first with oil, and now with, uh, now with nuclear.

[00:45:09] Mark Hinaman: Yeah.

Well, David, Mathias, uh, This has been great. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me. It’s been a wonderful chat. Thank you.

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